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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
21245
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Posted - 2015.01.25 17:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
Damnit CCP tables are hard on your forum layout.
An actual essay on Damage Mods vs Shield Extenders
These are the two high slot modules that are actually worth bothering with for most players, so it's normally the choice between these two for the highs unless you're a dedicated shield tank and want a recharger/energizer.
Fitting requirements These assume maximum skills, which provides a notable CPU fitting reduction to damage mods. If you do not have the relevant skill maxed, damage mods will cost a fair chunk more CPU.
Tier - - - - Damage mods - - Shield extenders Basic - - - - 20 CPU 3 PG - - 18 CPU 3 PG Enhanced - - - - 38 CPU 5 PG - - 36 CPU 6 PG Complex - - - - 58 CPU 9 PG - - 54 CPU 11 PG
Across all tiers, damage mods use a bit more CPU than shield extenders and shield extenders use slightly more PG except at basic, where there is no difference.
Differences: At basic, damage mods use 2 more CPU than shield extenders. At enhanced, damage mods use 2 more CPU than shield extenders and 1 less PG. At complex, damage mods use 4 more CPU than shield extenders and 2 less PG.
Generally this is not a very large difference. In most cases, if you can fit one, you can fit the other. The exception to this is if your relevant skill isn't maxed, as then damage mods will cost significantly more CPU.
TTK benefits Consider a weapon of 500 DPS. This is a fair chunk more than most proto rifles, but we'll use it as an easy base number. In a direct 1v1, which will help you more? A shield extender, or a damage mod? There are other factors, of course, so don't take this as an exact 'this will win in every circumstance over this' explanation.
The answer depends on your HP level, as damage mods are % based while shield extenders are not. In terms of stacking, the outcome is universally less in favour of the damage mod as stacking increases as damage mods are stacking penalised while shield extenders are not.
Using our hypothetical 500 DPS weapon, we will look at the effect of damage mods of each tier in numbers of one to three. Examples of every permutation will not be provided as this would require 27 different scenarios. Stacking penalties included.
Base DPS = 500
--------------------1 damage modifier-------2 damage modifiers-------3 damage modifiers Basic-------------515------------(3%)--------528-------------(5.6%)-------537--------------(7.3%) Enhanced-------525------------(5%)--------546--------------(9.3%)-------560-------------(12.2%) Complex---------535-------------(7%)--------565-------------(13%)------585-------------(17%)
You can also use this as a resource to quickly see what damage % increase stacked damage mods will give you.
Let us do the same thing for shield extenders. This is easier to calculate because there are no stacking penalties, of course.
-------------- 1 shield extender 2 shield extenders 3 shield extenders Basic-----------------------+36 HP----------------------- +72 HP------------------------+108 HP Enhanced---------------- +55 HP-----------------------+110 HP-----------------------+165 HP Complex-------------------+73 HP--------------- -------+146 HP-----------------------+219 HP
For the purposes of this analysis, we will now pit two units against each other. One will fit shield extenders, and one will fit damage mods at a ratio of 1:1 at the same tier.
Basic tier:
S = shield victory D = damage victory
Base HP 1 module - 2 modules - 3 modules 200 HP --- S --- S --- S 300 HP --- S --- S --- S 400 HP --- S --- S --- S 500 HP --- S --- S --- S 600 HP --- S --- S --- S 700 HP --- S --- S --- S 800 HP --- S --- S --- S ----------------------------------------Marginal difference range--------------------------------------------- 900 HP --- S --- S --- S 1000 HP --- S --- S --- S 1100 HP --- D --- S --- S 1200 HP --- D --- S --- S 1300 HP --- D --- D --- S 1400 HP --- D --- D S 1500 HP --- D --- D --- D
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
21245
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Posted - 2015.01.25 17:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
The difference ceases to be marginal at around the 2000 base HP mark.
This shows a clear trend - up until a certain point of base HP, the shield extended unit will win. Past that point the damage modded unit wins.
The switchover point with for both enhanced and complex is 1100 base HP with a module count of 1. The difference begins to be marginal at 900 base HP and ceases to be marginal at 2000 base HP.
In conclusion, it is generally better to fit shield extenders than damage mods up until very high base HP levels in the context of a direct 1v1. The exceptions to this are when you're using a HMG (in which case damage mods become better much earlier due to higher DPS) or when you're using a weapon with less than 500 DPS (in which case shield extenders pull ahead.)
Of course, not everything is a direct 1v1.
Shield extenders and damage modifiers tend to have a direct relationship in that they can be directly compared to one another quite easily. However, there are some scenarios where one is better to have than the other.
Specifically, damage mods are more useful for ganking people. If you want to gank someone without retaliation, damage mods are better because your own HP does not come into the matter. Whether this be sniping or aggressive flanking, this is where damage mods have a genuine opportunity to be more useful than shield extenders.
The exception to this is when you are a very low HP unit who wants to gank. At this level, the HP gains represented by a shield extender are much more lucrative than the slight increase in damage yielded by damage mods.
Fairly obviously, shield extenders are better for survivability. If you're not relying on a rapid gank, these are generally superior. If you're a direct, head on combat unit these will generally be better unless you're a heavy. These are also better if you do not rely on your weapon or do not need slight increases in damage. Shield extenders are also better for 1v1s if lower DPS weapons are involved.
Discuss.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
21245
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Posted - 2015.01.25 18:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
I rounded down. It doesn't matter, because the scenarios are still identical.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
21246
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Posted - 2015.01.25 18:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote: there is also a big flaw in your assumptions. against AR and SCR shield extenders are alot less effective. they are also worth alot less against weaponry that outright kill you or deplete your shields in one hit.
The exact weapon you're using is irrelevant. This is about the general idea. If you want to quibble over exact weapon DPSes, the AR does not do 500 base DPS.
Jack McReady wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I rounded down. It doesn't matter, because the scenarios are still identical.
EDIT: Yep, ran it through spreadsheet, identical results.
There you go. It changes nothing. Care to comment on the subject?
Wait, what did you do to my table? o_O you didnt, if you had rounded down your result would be 584 dps for 3 complex mods you simply added 7 + 6,0837 + 3,9942 together
Eh? No, at 17% it's 585. 500 x 1.17 is 585.
In your own words, 'basic math ftw'.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
21246
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Posted - 2015.01.25 18:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:[ you said you rounded, there is no way your result would be 585 if you rounded since rounded the result would be 584. you added percantages thus you got 585, you failed at basic math.
No?
A 17% increase to 500 yields 585. If you don't understand this, let me go over this really slowly for you.
500 divided by 100 is 1%, and equals 5.
A 17% increase is 17 times 1%. 17 x 1 = 17, yes? 17 x 5 = 85.
Thus, a 17% increase is 585.
Not 584.
I suggest before declaring someone else is wrong and that they haven't learnt basic maths, you learn basic arithmetic yourself.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
21272
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Posted - 2015.01.25 22:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Shamarskii Simon wrote:I'm guessing he got 17 like this
7 + 6.0837 (6.1) + 3.9942 (4.0) 7 + 4 = 11 11 + 6.1 = 17.1 (17)
That's what i see
Rather than rounding at the end only, rounding was done during, and at the end. :D
Without rounding one's answer is 17.0779 In that sense rounding at the end would give 17.1 , not 17.0.
Next time use 100dps for super simplicity? We all know 17% of 100 is 17 after all (as % == per cent == per one hundred. [17% = 17/100])
Just a thought.
Anyways! Are you trying to say shields should have lower fitting cost than mods? 1 or 2 pg below same CPU?
I'm not particularly trying to say anything. Just demonstrate when you should use shield mods and when you should use damage mods.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
21275
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Posted - 2015.01.25 22:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
This is true - in really super tight fittings, 1 or 2 PG can make a difference, and although 4 CPU is also sometimes useful on tight fits I think 2 units of PG are harder to come by than 4 units of CPU, most of the time.
You're quite right that the 1% potentially makes a difference, so I re-ran the numbers through the spreadsheet with a corrected formula... But nothing really changed. Honestly, it was always going to be a marginal difference.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
21291
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Posted - 2015.01.26 07:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
Just going to point out that although the vast majority of scenarios go in the favour of shield extenders, that's only for that specific scenario. I am not saying that 'shield is always better at this HP level', I am saying that in a direct 1v1 a shield extender is generally more useful than a damage mod. Take from that what you will.
@Shamarskii - I'm not really sure how you came to the conclusion that 'damage mods provide so much of an advantage over shield extenders'. Could you explain a little more, please?
@those people talking about damage profiles - Sure, that makes a difference. I can explain it to you here.
A damage profile bonused against shields will increase the DPS against the extenders. This will mean that shield extenders become 10-20% less useful, relatively. However, unless 500 DPS is significantly exceeded (as in the case of the scrambler rifle) it won't change the numbers in the table much, and indeed unless you're using a proto or high proficiency AR, you won't actually reach the 500 DPS base number. On exceeding 500 DPS shields shift up the chart and more Ds appear.
A damage profile bonused against armour will decrease the DPS against the extenders. This will mean that extenders become 10-20% more useful, relatively. For the most part anti-armour weapons will have less than 500 DPS anyway, so what will happen is shields will dominate the chart further.
500 DPS is a base number. If you want to apply it to your particular situation, consider the DPS values against shields. Then if they're higher, start using damage mods at lower HP levels. If they're lower, use shield extenders to higher HP levels. This really isn't a thing declaring anything super balance related, this is mostly just a chart of when to use a shield extender and when to use a damage mod.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
21298
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Posted - 2015.01.26 12:57:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote: beside that his analysis is flawed cause the base of his analysis is a random dps number taken out of the air compared to HP. this is only one aspect out of many based on some random numbers, which in my book is far away from a "mathematical" analysis. I do not mean this in an insulting way even when it sounds like it...
Would you like to do a more exhaustive case for every single permutation? I will warn you that there are a good few thousand different permutations if you want to run the numbers for every possible TTK, millions if you decide you want to have the exact armour:shield numbers and possibilities as well.
The point of doing it like this, and I will admit that it does require some intelligence on the part of the reader, is to pick a averageish DPS figure and look at how it works when you scale it. As can be inferred from the numbers, as DPS increases, the relative usefulness of damage mods increases, and as it decreases, the relative utility of shield extenders increases.
If you'd like to further complain that 500 DPS isn't a sufficiently average figure, perhaps you're right! 500 DPS is wildly higher than many, many weapons, and so it slants this to show that damage mods are better than they are. That is, if you decide to deliberately misinterpret this and take your misinterpretation as gospel truth.
As for you claim that you didn't mean to be insulting, that is rather difficult to believe given the content of some of your posts before they removed. But I suppose if you're prepared to be civil we can leave it there.
Quote: the problem here is that there are weapons that OHK, wipe your shields in one hit or are simply strong against shields thus stacking shield extenders over more damage is doing pretty much nothing.
In the case of weapons that OHKO, whether you are using a shield extender or a damage mod is in most cases entirely irrelevant. In either case, one hit will kill you.
In the case of weapons which wipe your shields in one hit... Flux grenades? Those are entirely irrelevant to this discussion as they care for neither damage mods nor shield extenders. If you're talking about the SCR, this is still entirely accurate as you can simply calculate the DPS with a charge shot and look at how it scales from there.
As for 'shield extenders doing pretty much nothing' because weapons exist with a 10 or 20% bonus damage against them, that is entirely hyperbole. 500 DPS is as much DPS as you will get out of a high proficiency standard plasma rifle, an anti-shield weapon, against shields. As clearly shown, shield extenders do not do 'pretty much nothing' but are in fact generally better than damage mods until you get to high HP levels.
Quote: his analysis also does not factor in damage profiles. everything is multiplied and thus a single complex damage mod can easily net you 9% or more damage over your base dps if you are hitting against the "element" which your weapon is strong against allowing you to finish your target faster.
Once more, you miss the point entirely.
I am providing a base comparison between the utility values of damage mods and shield extenders at varying levels of base HP at a value of 500 DPS. It is up to you to scale the weapon DPS - the 500 DPS is middling value.
For the umpteenth time, apply damage profiles to that DPS figure and see how it works from there. As explained numerous times by myself, you can simply multiply any of the DPS numbers on the chart to find out damage profiles.
[quote] a damage mod also increases your damage per clip making it more likely to finish off your target.
there are also plenty of ways to ensure that you get the first strike with profile damps or precision enhancers. gank your target and do not receive damage. /quote] As explained numerous times in the original post which you evidently didn't bother to read past finding one number that was 1% off (apparently setting you off on a determined rant) those numbers are for a 1v1 scenario. Of course there are other factors. Even you can see this. Many, many times I have said that this is for a direct 1v1.
If you are so disposed to complain about my post, will you at least do me the courtesy of reading it fully first?
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
21313
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Posted - 2015.01.26 18:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Bright Steel wrote:Your conclusion makes perfect sense in a fair 1vrs1 duel but I often find that I'm either on the defensive and getting shot first and then responding, in this case I prefer more hp to have time to respond.
When I'm on the offensive I prefer 2 damage mods (third loses a lot of value) and rest extenders to take advantage of the second of reaction time on the victim.
Where I don use damage mods is with high alpha weapons, mass driver as example, cause that extra 20-30 damage won't keep me from having to take that last shoot.
Just my humble opinion.
Sure.
I completely agree.
Quote:Of course, not everything is a direct 1v1.
Shield extenders and damage modifiers tend to have a direct relationship in that they can be directly compared to one another quite easily. However, there are some scenarios where one is better to have than the other.
Specifically, damage mods are more useful for ganking people. If you want to gank someone without retaliation, damage mods are better because your own HP does not come into the matter. Whether this be sniping or aggressive flanking, this is where damage mods have a genuine opportunity to be more useful than shield extenders.
The exception to this is when you are a very low HP unit who wants to gank. At this level, the HP gains represented by a shield extender are much more lucrative than the slight increase in damage yielded by damage mods.
Fairly obviously, shield extenders are better for survivability. If you're not relying on a rapid gank, these are generally superior. If you're a direct, head on combat unit these will generally be better unless you're a heavy. These are also better if you do not rely on your weapon or do not need slight increases in damage. Shield extenders are also better for 1v1s if lower DPS weapons are involved.
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